Session: Discussion on Recommendations on OCTS-related
Lead: Dr. Fukushima and Dr. Saino (Chairmen, Ocean Biology
December 8, 1999 (11:00-12:00)
of Chl-a] [Algorithm
and Data Archiving]
Dr. Fukushima starts the discussion by
summarizing the current status of the Action Items from the first, the
second and the third workshops. Most action items are closed. There are
several action items still in study.
Dr. Fukushima's Slide 1
Ocean Biology Science Team since 1994
- Should merge with GLI-PI's and continue?
- Found the application studies in progress, especially SeaWiFS,
- Application to the open ocean studies seems to be OK. Coastal, Case
II waters are problematic.
- Continuity of data sets from different sensorsà Importan
- Chl-a may be increasing
- Recommend POLDER Team to further improve algorithm for Chl-a.
Increase of Chl-a
Dr. R. Frouin
- · Regarding Dr. Saino's statement on expansion of Chl-a, do you have
- · The emphasis should be placed not on the increase of Chl-a, but on
the change. The global level changes are just started to be observed.
- ·As far as presentation from Hirawake and Mitchell, they have
observed a gradual increase in the past 3-4 years. Indeed, the natural
variability exists, but this will be more threatening.
- · Maybe increase of Chl-a. But in the South Ocean, there is a 4-8
year up-and-down cycle of temperature. But maybe it will decrease in a
few years. I don't think it will continue to increase.
- · So you are in the scientific point of view. Not increase, but
Algorithm and Data Archiving
- ·Regarding the polar region algorithm, the polar region contains 20%
of the World Ocean. We have lots of data spread out but they are not
organized. SeaBAM type data measure should be organized to meet these
- ·[presents a slide on the OHP. The slide shows "OCTS vs. SeaWiFS
Chl", demonstrating the fact that these algorithms are different.] We
have to make sure there's a compatibility of Chl derived by different
sensors. The figure shows comparison of Chl derived from OCTS and
SeaWiFS. They are both from the same SeaBAM input data but there are
different. We should work on to reduce the differences so that we can
- ·Does NASA have any project working on this matter?
- ·I think SIMBIOS is moving towards that direction.
- ·It has been a major priority to insist on data delivery and
integration without merged data. I think it is required in the Japanese
scientific community to push all the data together and centralize it.
Janet's data is from 20 different data systems, institutions and PI's.
- ·I am not very familiar with that.
- ·I agree with Mitchell that the Japanese researchers need such an
organization. We have to do merging of the data in order to make a
- ·Does JAXA commit resources and data system required in synthesized
way? Is it possible or does it have to be done on the PI side?
- ·Any JAXA representative here?
- ·In a sense, I am in charge, but I have to work closely with JAXA
on this matter.
- ·It's not only important to develop that, but also important to
develop the algorithm. You need centralized data set or system so that
everyone can access it easily. Consistent data is important.
- ·SIMBIOS is ready for SeaBAM in year 2000. We will be happy to help
JAXA in that aspect. We do protocols, and construct database. We can
invite someone from Japan when we are done, and transfer the techniques
- ·Probably it needs more network support. I have a question to
SIMBIOS. How early will it be to support such database? They can be used
as integrated part but it is more difficult to put them locally to
- ·I think it is a good idea, we should definitely discuss this. We
look at different databases to facilitate the interfaces among different
databases. JAXA can see the structure of our system and see if it can
be implemented. One comment, PI sharing the data, the lack of tight
connection is a big problem.
Dr. Asanuma, JAMSTEC
- ·We can identify each team to get a scientific advantage. For the
end user, we don't care for the scientific advantage. We want consistent
algorithm; we don't care the scientific advantage of SIMBIOS. We should
have an operational algorithm for Chl-a.
- ·With regard to the performance of algorithm, there was a comment
about the existence of a high clear sky radiance in Southern Hemisphere.
But it doesn't mean the calibration is bad in the south. So the clear
sky retrieval will be a different story. We should examine
one-level-lower products and compare, rather than comparing the higher
products in cloud masking.
- ·My opinion from mathematical point, I would like to see if there is
an easy way to go with one algorithm. I would like to see to examine the
differences in new products.
- ·How shall we implement an opportunity to discuss such things?
- ·Perform international team meeting to see the international quality
of merging data. Dr. Peter, Mr. Tanaka and I are working on the
proposal. We can have a workshop once a year. The first one can be
devoted to algorithm. As a part of this, we try to get agencies to make
diagnostic database. We identify some sites globally distributed. How do
we get the consensus on algorithm?
- ·Time is now 11:30 so let's discuss the report that we have to
submit on Friday.
- ·On the slide, I recommended to further improve Chl-a for POLDER
team, do you agree? (To the audience)
- ·Why not OCTS and SeaWiFS?
- ·[Adds the above two on the slide.]
- ·River Program using OCTS was mentioned on Monday. Can you give a
further explanation on it?
- ·We have selected some good river images from level-1 data of OCTS.
But level 1 is only available at this point. Then, we want to add
atmospheric correction. Then, we can retrieve the Chl-a. If we have the
correction, we can do simultaneous retrieve values of Chl-a.
- ·I want to add to that. Dr. Kishino is the PI of the River Project
so I want to talk about the data processing part. We selected 20 rivers,
5 scenes each. That's in the server now. In future, we want to do more
rivers. I will do Asian River Project. We will do rivers in the Asian
continent. Please forward the request of rivers to Dr. Kishino, then he
can discuss that with JAXA. Only large rivers are covered for now but
small rivers have interesting characteristics, too.
- ·It seems like you are combining a bunch of data without
coordination. You have to coordinate with someone doing the research
locally. You can't totally rely on satellite pictures only. Are you
working with people with local subsets? I am curious to see if there is
- ·OCTS also have data. We presented an idea on Asian islands. We want
people in the Asian Water to participate in OCTS. We just started
because Asian Island Project is just approved. Dr. Fukushima , Dr.
Kishino and myself are working on this. This is just a starting
point....... Asian countries do not have the tradition of optics. So it
is different for them to do the things we agree on doing in optical
things. United States and Japan have an optical tradition so it is
easier, we can exchange data.
- ·I agree with Mitchell. I am a co-investigator for SeaWiFS project
and we are looking at spectral signatures in 60 major rivers. If you
don't have a processing means to do that at more than level 1b, we can
help you from there.
- ·It is not the processing that is a problem. The problem is how to
pick up such data and use them. All the data are in JAXA so we have to
push JAXA continuously. River Project will be expanded later to examine
more river-ocean relations.
- ·Optical retrieval is only the beginning. Then later, dynamics will
be arisen, which is more of a difficult issue to investigate. We
continue to investigate.
Sensor-Science Team Discussion
- ·Leads the Sensor-Science Team discussion by using the slides below.
Slide 1: Recommendations on OCTS-related Activities.
- Intensive Local Area Coverage
- Data Archive for Future Process
- ·We should make recommendations on OCTS-related activities but there
Slide 2: ILAC Process
- What should be the schedule?
- How should we distribute the data?
- What format, software, media or network?
Slide 3: Update of Products
- What is version 5?
- Include atmospheric correction, case 2 water (which has many
algorithms), and pigment algorithm?
- How much is it superior to version 4? Is there a big advantage?
It is a very important point to recommend to JAXA. How
long does it take to make Ver 5. Should there be 6 and 7?
Slide 4: Consistency of Products Among Sensors
Consistency: nLw, Chl-a Concentration (having 2
algorithms which are used for OCTS and SeaWiFS), and CZCS like pigment. We
are missing the CZCS like pigment.
Slide 5: Data Archive for future process
- Policy for raw data?
- How to archive and how much should be distributed, processing
- In-situ data (important topic), how should it be archived or
exchanged with SIMBIOS team?
- ·Dr. Asanuma seems to be suspicious of Version 5. But I will go
through this with everyone. Let's talk about data archive for future
process. Any encouragement or comment to make to JAXA about keeping
good archive system for OCTS data in future?
- ·I want to mention something. From 98 January Sendai Symposium, data
distribution was a problem. We still have the same problem.
- ·Are you satisfied with the current OCTS data distribution system?
No complains? [No response from audience.] OK, fine.
- ·It seems to work fine. I am concerned a bit about OCTS data having
no longer great scientific value in future. We are just beginning the
concept of time series, so we might find new events in 5 years from now.
I hope you can keep these data for a long time, even new stuff comes
out, because we have to go back to it sometimes. It always has to be
- ·We have to develop an user-friendlier browser, like in NOOS
overview. We like to use more of low level data. Right information, row
data, and dataset for each region, collaborate with local scientist to
develop algorithm for each region. OCTS have more value in future.
- ·It seems you are not globally focused. The reason most people use
Chl-a is that's the only available one. We can generate the product
accurately the community will use it. 3 years from now, if we figure out
how we get the carbon and specific topics, we want to come back to it
and re-process it. We may have to come back to raw data to get accurate
analysis. We don't know when we will reach that point. But may it happen
many years later, we want to be able to access it.
- Greg, we need global data processing capability in future. Are you
comfortable if JAXA in future keeps reprocessed data under new
- ·Scientifically, that's a valid data. I would like to see it happen.
·Mr. ? (Un-Identified )You need level-1B, right? (to Campbell) They
shouldn't want the merged data, but dynastic data set. We need some
point data of some certain point.
- ·But we want GLOBAL, not 20 points around the world. I think the
issue is we recommend JAXA that Level-1b data is possible. GAC data can
be saved in the media.
- ·Some issues should be kept discussed next week. I think consensus
of us is that we encourage JAXA to keep data and archive system in good
condition. And I would make statement about this issue on the final
report (Update of products).